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Ask the Editors 'Intensive purposes': An Eggcorn We're intent on clearing it up 'Nip it in the butt': An Eggcorn We're gonna stop you right there Literally How to use a word that literally drives some pe Is Singular 'They' a Better Choice?

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Comments on whereby What made you want to look up whereby? It didn't force me to become a raging asshole. Don't hold up people like me or people who had my experience as a justification for those who have chosen to adopt such a toxic and dangerous attitude about half the species.

Have you actually read these incel fantasies? They talk about women being kept as chattel property. They talk about children existing solely for their own depraved sexual pleasure.

DO NOT take the, in all fairness, relatively minor social ostracism people like myself have experienced, as compared to the actual horrific existence many in the world undergo, to be an excuse for what is obviously a sick self-justification for an attitude that all people who are not them being unworthy to have their own agency over their lives or even their own bodies.

My childhood was oftentimes socially unplesant, but you know what? I got over it. I decided to overcome rather than wallow in self-pity and to twist that pity into a psychopathic worldview.

I was able to grow into a relatively functional adult, and so can they. Again, they have simply chosen not to. I was too. The point, which you missed, is that the Elliot Rodger types and the more extreme jackasses on Reddit are high profile and contemptible, but not representative.

Case in point. Yes, that's a long article. No, it's not especially condensable. It goes into detail on how we got here. Much like the Aydin Paladin video I linked earlier, it's important to read in full if you wish to understand rather than just grandstand and make yourself look and feel good.

Actually, that's one of the points it makes - kicking people while they're down actively makes the situation worse.

Andara wrote: Dystopia wrote: Why? Why should attractiveness be exempt from quantification and scientific study? Because it's highly subjective.

And that's before you even get into the concept that attractiveness is actively affected by personality. Let's see you try to quantify that in any meaningful way.

I can guarantee that you won't agree with some of what I find attractive. And I sure as hell am not attracted to the same guys as one of my friends; neither do we have the same standards for beauty in women, for that matter.

It may be subjective, but this doesn't make it impervious to science. Quote: While individual and cross-cultural differences exist see later , this politically correct view of beauty is to some extent false.

In fact, agreement between individuals is one of the best-documented and most robust findings in facial attractiveness research since the s.

Across many studies it has been found that there is a high degree of agreement from individuals within a particular culture and also high agreement between individuals from different cultures see [2] for a meta-analytical review.

If different people can agree on which faces are attractive and which are not attractive when judging faces of varying ethnic background e.

Quote: Trying to quantify beauty for individual consumption is like trying to quantify the "best" flavor. I find some very popular flavors and appearances to be utterly repulsive.

Yeah, you're wrong about that one too. The absence of a universal maximum isn't really indicative of much.

Your tastes in both food and sexual partners are unlikely to be significantly out of line with the rest of the species, and they are definitely not beyond the capacity of science.

Dystopia wrote: Andara wrote: Dystopia wrote: As a practical matter I think you could cut down on the number of incels dramatically if you got every teenage boy a prostitute at So, your "solution" to a potential incel is to treat a woman like an object and gift her to him?!?

Oh, are you against prostitution then? Where specifically does your objection lie? Are you opposed to a woman choosing to have sex with someone?

Are you objecting that she do it professionally for money? Are you objecting that her services be engaged by proxy by the government or by a parent?

Is it that the client is a minor? Is it that he is having this done for him, instead of hiring his own prostitute? Where specifically is the line crossed for you?

If someone on this forum suggested we cure angry racists by giving them slaves at 14 I wonder if they'd be free to post their ideas here.

Same questions to you, plus another. Did you think I was suggesting that the prostitutes be forced into providing this service, instead of having their services purchased on the open market in a free exchange of services for money?

In case you where imagining I was endorsing some sort of shady, Mafia run operation. Nekojin wrote: I missed that bit of "brilliance.

Having no actual experience to go by encourages them to attribute all sorts of life altering, magical properties to it.

There's no point telling them this, because they won't believe it. There are just far too many people with far too much incentive to pretend otherwise not least the fear of appearing to be a virgin loser for any such instruction to be credible.

The point is not to feed a sense of entitlement, which won't exist yet anyway if the intervention comes early enough. It's to make it more likely the boy will be disappointed by the cold, hard reality, and demote sex in his priority hierarchy in favour of better pursuits, like video games, drinking with his mates, or 2D waifus.

Seriously though about the waifus, have you ever noticed that incels, at least not the really obnoxious kind, don't have them? Matisaro wrote: Are these anti incel prostitutes also 14 or?

I mean I think you just suggested in public to allow adults to have sex with minors Adult prostitutes. Yeah, it's an adult and a minor. What's your point?

I said 14, not 4. Here's a map of age of consent laws around the world. Plenty of perfectly respectable countries with age of consent set at 14 or 15, and even one Japan at We're talking about post-pubescent teenagers here, not little kids.

If that's still too much for you, jack it up to That then encompasses the entire civilised world. New content starts here: tesseract4 wrote: Dystopia wrote: As a practical matter I think you could cut down on the number of incels dramatically if you got every teenage boy a prostitute at So, your solution to teenagers adopting a worldview in which they're entitled to sex is to set up a compulsory system in which teenagers are entitled to sex?

This may be one of the most assinine things I've ever read. Edit: Just saw the moderation. I'll shut up now. Well, no. That's not what I proposed.

Who's being compelled in my proposal? And 'misogynist incel' is a redundant term. Except that it's not. The Elliot Rodger types certainly get a lot of attention, and there are a lot of shitbags on Reddit, but there are also plenty of guys like in this article I linked in the last thread.

They're not hateful, just unhappy and frustrated. Lumping them in with the former group isn't fair. I'd rather punch myself in the face than debate the cure for misogyny with a misogynist.

Elliot Rodger could have been getting his weed whacked every day of his life, and he'd still be enraged that he couldn't have Taylor Swift.

That article is the seed of the attitude that creates guys like Elliot Rodger. The common theme in those blog posts that author is trying to pillory is that being self described as nice means nothing.

Nice is only one of may attributes that attract women. And most of those guys are probably not that nice anyway. Guys who like to dwell on their niceness tend to come across and bitter and uninteresting.

The incels complaining about the success of the Henrys may not be trolling the same pool of damaged women that prefer a Henry, and cheat with him on his next wife after getting beaten by him.

Are only males qualified to be incels? That might be like asking if there are black white supremecists or Jewish nazis. Sure there might be a guy out there but he's probably either a loon or looking to be on Dr.

I believe the root cause of all these problems lies in a way the western world has dramatically altered the social norms related to dating, sex and amorous relationships in general.

Not that very long ago less than a years , in most parts of the World, all those things were governed by a mix of social, civic and religious rules and customs that, while different from culture to culture did seem to share some common social functions: - Unsure that any person deemed fit for society would have a mate.

Barring that unsure they would find a social place where not having a mate is the norm. This translates into most of these systems being a mix of : - Patriarchal - Repressive against sexual minorities - Permissive to domestic violence - Dismissive of personal choice and agency for the greater benefit of the parents, family, clan, village, The problem is that as of now nothing has really emerged to fill that void so the problems that these systems were addressing have come back in full force.

Is it any wonder that some groups of people are seeking refuge in the broken remnants of these systems. Just to be clear, I think getting rid of these systems was a good idea, however free market relationships aided by social media apps probably isn't a great replacement either.

I don't think that the issue of "incel rebellion" per se is anywhere close to the point where we have to consider major changes to society but I think it merits to discuss sexual behaviors as it pertains to societal changes.

Patriarchal societies did serve a purpose and the reason we can afford to step away from them now is because science and technology allows us such nice things as birth control, massive drop in infant mortality, etc, etc.

At the same time as mentioned above we do have essentially a free market when it comes to relationships with entertainment that gives off a constant barrage of sexual imagery and with every win and loss amplified by social media - a situation which is probably not conductive to long term psychological well being for a large portion of the population.

Would be interesting to see solutions that do not involve VR orgies with AI prostitutes and full body tactile feedback suits which is probably how it is all going to end.

If it was that easy, these guys would be paying for it already. Done in one. The problem isn't lack of sex, it's lack of really specific sex they feel entitled to.

And if they ever get it they destroy any chance of keeping it because they are driven by insecurity and jealousy. White supremacists ideology is about white race purity, so a black person by definition can't become one although there is a famous black klansman story.

Nazis were against the Jewish race, so outside of a self loathing Jew, Jews can't identify as nazis. Why can't a woman identify with being involuntarily celibate?

The whole thing with male incels is not that they can't get laid, is that at some point in their adolescent development they realised they can't get laid with the prettiest girl in the class and they twisted that into their deplorable incel social group.

So I'm curious to if there are women whom indentify with being incels too as at some point they see they can't get laid with the most attractive males and that has warped their own sexual identity and prevents them from having sex at all.

Incels have a high suicide rate. It's a psychological self identity problem. They get so wrapped in the notion of an immature ideation of sex to develop a mature understanding and relationship with sex.

Misogyny is a result of a male identifying as an incel, but a misogynists doesn't have to be exclusively an incel, if that makes sense. As in an incel becomes misogynistic as a result of their immature sexual development.

The solution to the 'incel problem' is relatively simple. It's communication and education about sex as a whole.

Not just the birds and bees alone, but later as teenagers mature to have a sex education which deals with not only safe sex and teenage pregnancies, but also about sexual relationships, consent, and healthy sexual views.

When we start the conversation that a man is entitled to have sex, and the solution as suggested by dystopia is prostitution, then we've gone way past the point of no return.

Which is why I'm approaching this conversation purely from the starting point of an immature unhealthy sexual identity.

Wow, you all covered my single post in the three posts right above! My 3 year old daughter the past few days has been in very clingy daddy's girl phase.

Any parent will tell you this happens with their kids. I can barely type as my daughter is clinging to my arm.

I'll try to complete my thoughts later. Another thing I'd like to expand on, while I have a minute to myself before my daughter realises I'm not paying attention to her.

What about those male support groups where the male feels the legal system is against them? I saw a Vox or Vice video editorial on it a few weeks ago.

I forget what they're called. It's fascinating to see men young and old project the female gender on their own existential insecurity.

Because incels are not literally defined exclusively by being involuntary celibates but a community the is identified by the extremely misogynistic entitlement to sex with women of their choosing.

It is a movement founded on misogyny, even if it isn't the only form of misogyny. The term incel was apparently started by a woman decades ago describing herself but the current usage is far from that.

DanaR wrote: papadage wrote: If it was that easy, these guys would be paying for it already. Entitlement is the entire problem in one word.

It's not that they can't get women to sleep with them. It's that they feel entitled to having what they want, when they want it, with the people they want it with, without having to actually put any effort or even try to earn the right to have it.

It's really amazing how utterly judgemental and picky they are about which women are acceptable as sex partners when their entire complaint is that they're not, themselves, physically desirable as sex partners.

A woman can be involuntarily celibate but there's this whole worldview associated with incels proper that I think might be as contradictory as a black white supremacist, in that it's not quite impossible but it's bonkers such that it would be extremely rare.

There's a great analysis here , and as that video breaks down it goes far far beyond merely not being able to date normally. There's a whole worldview and mythology and defense mechanisms that as the video points out, treats suggestions that there might be other ways to deal with the problem as microaggressions.

This is the contradiction of the age of social media. There's plenty of oppressed groups that can find community and ultimately work to better their situation, but there's also toxic communities where unhealthy viral coping mechanisms can take hold and I don't think there's any a priori way to tell them apart.

People that feel marginalized are very vulnerable to this sort of thing. The video I link above has a useful insight where online communities for trans people can turn into an unhealthy hypercritical place that can actually make body dysmorphia worse.

It's self harm. So this pattern seems like a recurring one across multiple other groups, even ones that don't have a history of turning to violence and terrorism.

Not a huge surprise there's going to be vulnerable populations that end up producing murderers, which was an area where white dudes were already well represented.

It reminds me a bit of my experience with child free groups online. When I was new to the internet it was refreshing to stumble upon alt.

And there are some legitimate reasons why people, especially women might need 'support' for choosing to not have kids, although to be honest I personally never felt a lot of pressure.

However, you soon find this so called support group is full of toxic poisonous hateful people who in some cases take pleasure in harm coming to children.

Something about a concentrated group, anonymity plus perceived oppression and victimhood seems to bring out the ugliest in humans.

Quote: When I did finally manage to get laid in my early 20s, it was a crushing disappointment. This part I rather agree with.

It's not that sex isn't fun, so much as it isn't the be-all and end-all of life. Sex in the incels' mind is a much bigger deal than it is in reality.

But of course, it's not really sex they want: it's a woman to be subservient to them. If they just wanted sex they could cough up a hundred bucks and get it.

They'll make all sorts of excuses as to why this isn't an option, but they all boil down to their desire being for control, not sticking their penis into a vagina.

For example I personally have no idea where one could go to find a prostitute or to buy illegal drugs or engage in any other illegal vice I can think of and if I tried to do that chances are I would either be arrested or robbed.

My gut feeling tells me that for an average incel such an attempt would look exactly like what happened to the main character from the Catcher in the Rye when he tried to hire a prostitute.

Megalodon wrote:. That was a great video. I can't believe watched the whole thing but it was really well done. She made excellent points about the toxicity of these online communities and how they really are harmful to people's mental health.

I think you can expand what she is saying beyond incels to the broader issues we're facing with hate crimes and right wing violence. It really is.

Quote: My gut feeling tells me that for an average incel such an attempt would look exactly like what happened to the main character from the Catcher in the Rye when he tried to hire a prostitute.

Holden didn't have the Internet. It sucks that Craigslist and Backpage are gone, but there's doublelist, bedpage, adult friend finder, and so on and so forth.

In fairness, the Family Law system is heavily tilted in favor of the wife, and even more so when there's children involved. There's decades, if not centuries, of misogyny that is very, VERY hard to unravel.

It's why my mother went into Family Law, and supported male clients almost exclusively - because, when she was a court clerk, she saw a lot of divorces have results that were bad for the husbands, and bad for the children.

Now, you're wondering how it's misogyny if the woman benefits to a greater degree, on average, right? Setting aside the fact that both sides of a divorce are actually losers in the long run losing the benefits of a stable marriage , it all goes back to an old, OLD sexist attitude: The man is the money-maker, the woman is the home-maker.

With that being the standard for the situation, even when both parents are involved in both responsibilities of the marriage, the system defaults to giving the children to the mother except in clear and obvious cases of parental misconduct.

And with the children going to the mother, the father will be expected to give both child support and spousal support.

All because the system assumes that women are better at caring for children, and worse at working or, to be nicer about it, "better suited" to childcare.

From the newly-incel POV, though, this is making the woman win everything. He's now giving money to someone who has stopped giving him sex, and not getting anything for it.

The welfare of his children is secondary; all he sees is her winning, and him losing. Note that while a large percentage of the incel crowd are virgins who have unreasonable expectations, incels are far from a perfect Venn circle within virgins.

Anyone who has an unreasonable expectation of sex with women of their choice can slip into that mind-set. Men with the old-fashioned attitude that you can't rape your wife that the wedding, itself, was a permanent state of consent can easily fall into the incel mindset, and there are myriad other ways that people can get into that mindset.

Let's start with the sexist twist: Should young women get a prostitute of the gender of their choice , too? If not, why not? How do you manage the prostitutes to make sure that you have a consistent provision of prostitutes everywhere they're needed?

Do you bus them to areas that don't have enough prostitutes? Treat it like hospital nurses, and demand longer work schedules for the ones you have?

You had some certainty that giving real sex to young men would somehow normalize them, and given them a more realistic view on what to expect.

Dr Pizza's experience follows that perception How do you deal with the ones who still have a warped perception on what to expect?

How do you deal with the ones who still have misogynistic attitudes - or, worse, have had their attitudes validated by the fact that they actually got what they wanted, and want more of it?

For that matter, do they only get one freebie? I'm sure there's other questions that I haven't remembered yet, but these will do for now.

Andara wrote: DanaR wrote: papadage wrote: If it was that easy, these guys would be paying for it already. This is reminding me of a podcast my wife was listening to the other day.

It was about how Millennials grew up with a huge sense of entitlement and instant gratification. Mostly due to the parents who raised them in a participation trophy era, where everyone was told that they were special and the best.

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